We will probably get to some of this material on Thursday, November 17. Please try to have read at least the Book III and Book IV selections by then. Please bring your book to class.III: 36-50 The Mytilene debate
III: 69-85 The revolution in Corcyra
IV: 42-48 Athenian successes/End of the revolution in Corcyra
V: 13-24 Peace of Nicias
V: 84-116 Melian Dialogue
VI: 89-93 Alcibiades justifies himself
VII: 76-87 Defeat of Nicias
Any particularly tragic elements here? Any elements of real tragedy? Are the themes/conflicts here comparable to the themes/conflicts in Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides? Anything that particularly warrants Thucydides' claim that he is writing a work for all time?
I think the story of Nicias' defeat is a pretty tragic one, and a good one to read about. Nicias has all the making of a tragic hero. Just like in the play of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides.
ReplyDeleteThe fate that almost befell Mytilene would be a great tragic story... or the setup for a tragic story. Not only were many innocent people about to be put to death, but a city-state that was built on democracy and freedom was persecuting them. Athens internal debate of what to do with the captured city is a struggle showing what can happen with any nation or group of people that gets too powerful. This debate ever even happening is itself a struggle. How could humans do this to one another and sleep at night? Luckily this almost tragedy was avoided after a good nights rest.
ReplyDelete-Wyatt Loftesness
In VI: 89-93 Alcibiades justifies himself, it shows how Alchibiades has his ability to persude people in doing what he think is need, like sending the more troops to help the silcilians from being destory/attacked by the Athenians; and making it seem that he is doing this deed for the sake of Spartan people, after he left from Athens.
ReplyDeleteThe themes of 89-93 Alcibiades justifying himself is some what like in Euripides I of self interest, and Sophocles (Oedipus Rex) of quest for the truth, and the one thing that shows Thucydides in his work is that has geographical background and history of the battles that shows the strength of Alchibiades of his cleverness and ability to persude.
The breakdown in morality in Greece was a tragedy. Thucydides shows how the symptoms of this in Athens (during the Mytilene debate) transferred to other city-states and worsened. During the revolution in Corcyra, the democratic party put all their enemies to death, including those they had persuaded to help them in the fighting. Then they went on a rampage: "There was death in every shape and form...There were fathers who killed their sons; men were dragged from the temples or butchered on the very altars; some were actually walled up in the temple of Dionysus and died there."
ReplyDeleteBut it spread from Corcyra: "revolutions broke out in city after city, and...the knowledge of what had happened previously in other places caused still new extravagances of revolutionary zeal, expressed by an elaboration in the methods of seizing power and by unheard-of atrocities in revenge." While the decision to destroy the Mytilenians was a tragic event, happily averted, this corruption in thought of the democratic party in Athens spread throughout her allies.
I think the Civil War in Corcyra was very tragic. There were people killed for very selfish reasons.
ReplyDelete"Their victims were accused of conspiring to overthrow the democracy, but in fact men were often killed on grounds of personal hatred or else by their debtors because of the money that they owed" (III:81)
I find something very wrong with murder and butchering, especially when it involves family.
"There were fathers who killed their sons; men were dragged from the temples or butchered on the very altars; some were actually walled up in the temple of Dionysus and died there" (III:81)
It goes on to say that political party membership became more important that family relationships, and the whole Hellenic world was turning to revolutions and civil wars. It is very tragic to read how such a great civilization turned to dishonesty and greed. Such examples follow:
"As a result of these revolutions, there was a general deterioration of character throughout the Greek world" (III:83)
"What used to be described as thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of modertaion was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; abilitiy to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiamsm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence" (III:82)
It seems they left all reason behind and leaned more to "shoot first, ask questions later." It's not something one likes to see their world become when they know how great it used to be.
~Aaron Johnston
The story of the revolution in Corcyra is tragic. The democrats struggle for their lives for a time but once they get the upper hand, they take advantage of the power they've claimed by executing the oligarchs. Thucydides says, "their victims were accused of conspiring to overthrow the democracy, but in fact men were often killed on grounds of personal hatred or else by their debtors because of the money that they owed." (3.81) The democrats, although struggling for their freedom, step over the line. They kill for reasons well out of step with defending the democracy.
ReplyDeleteThucydides demonstrates that he is writing for all time by analyzing this episode in terms of human nature. He explains that in "the various cities these revolutions were the cause of many calamaties - as happens and always will happen while human nature is what it is..." (3.82) He goes on to say that moderation became viewed as unmanly and "as for the citizens who held moderate views, they were destroyed by both the extreme parties, either for not taking part in the struggle or in envy at the possibility that they might survive." (3.82) He points out that there was a "general deterioration of character throughout the Greek world" (3.83) and concludes that "human nature, always ready to offend even when where laws exist, showed itself proudly in its true colors, as something incapable of controlling passion, insubordinate to the idea of justice, the enemy to anything superior to itself." (3.84)
The entire story of Corcyra during its civil war was a tragedy. Thucydides does an excellent job of explaining the intricate details of what was going on during the fighting. At the end, he offered his feelings on the subject. Thucydides wrote the "revenge was more important than self-preservation," and he later wrote that "as a result of these revolutions, there was a general deterioration of character throughout the Greek world." These are tragic elements that are part of an already tragic event. AS far as writing for all time, Thucydides knew that he was writing down the event sof his day, and what he wrote down was what would be remembered. He knew that his writings, if they survived, would be the written account of the Peloponnesian War, and I think he did a fantastic job of recounting the events that occurred.
ReplyDeleteThese all had tragic elements, however, it was the end of the revolution at Corcyra that seemed to be the most tragic to me. At first it seemed when the Athenians took the prisoners Corcyra that some good could come out of this story, however it was soon clear that no good was going to come out of this situation. Once the prisoners began than track to death and were beaten to death you could see the ending to this story would be bad, at least the executions showed some bravery by the men. When they locked themselves inside the building and began committing mass suicide the story took a turn for the worse. Instead of dying bravely at the hand of their enemy they began to take their own lives, taking the cowards way out instead, not quite the ending I was expecting. By telling this story it would seem that Thucydides is telling this story because he wants us to know what happened and he he wants us to remember it, it is clear that he is not writing this merely for entertainment, the story has a very depressing ending giving a feeling not felt in the plays by previous works. He is setting a standard with his historical record.
ReplyDeleteThere are a couple tragic elements in books three and four. In the Mytilene Debate the fact that Athenian society had fallen so far that they were willing to kill all the men of Mytilene was tragic. This is a city that's supposed democratic. The second tragic aspect came with the revolution in Corcyra. The revolution ended up with a civil war breaking out and many inocent people were killed. Both of these aspects have some tragic elements to them.
ReplyDeleteI think the Mytilene debate helps Thucydides claim to a book for all time. This reminded me of the debate after World War I. You had France and much of Europe who wanted to punish Germany for what they did. This is reminincent of Celon who wanted to crush Mytilene for trying to revolt against Athens. Then you have the other debator who says that Cleon and his approach are not in the best interest of Athens. His approach is similar to Woodrow Wilson's after WWI in that he did want to crush the German but rebuild them because what might happen if they left them to die so to speak. Cleon's opponite says that the death penalty has been around for many crimes and people still commit those crimes. The idea that killing all those people will work as a detourent just simply is not true.
As mentioned above, I think that all these passages exhibit some elements of tragedy; there are some however that seem to be more tragic than others. For instance, both the Mytilenian and Melian Debates exemplify some tragic elements. These debates seem to occur for some time; as both sides making promises but the tragedy occurs as both sides fail to keep their promises. This idea exemplifies how unfortunate to witness the Athenians lose their sense of honesty throughout the Peloponnesian War, especially after reading their funeral passage in book three, where the describe themselves as very admiral beings. One of the most unfortunate tragedy occurs with the Peace of Nicias, in book five. For years the Athenians and Spartans were at war and for years the Spartans were requesting peace, but it wasn’t until Nicias authority in Athens that he was able to convince his people that war was no longer necessary. In agreeing to take an oath with each other the Spartans and Athenians agreed to “abide by the terms of this treaty honestly and sincerely” (line 18) for fifty years. The city states even agreed on ways to renew their contract annually. Unfortunately, tragic elements are present in how short lived the treaty actually was.
ReplyDeleteOthers have commented on the Revolution of Corcyra, so I will comment on the Mytilenian debate. The debate itself is definitely not a tragedy and doesn't have many tragic elements, but what happens right before the debate is truly tragic - sending a ship to Mytilene to kill them. In the debate, Cleon had a slight criticism towards democracy to a certain extent and pushes for harsh "reprisals" for the Mytilene, but
ReplyDeleteDiodotus speaks right after and disagrees with what Creon had in store. After these long speeches Athens decided not to kill any one from Mytilene by a small majority vote of hands. Although some harsh words were exchanged these speeches lacked a level of tragedy. It was now a scramble to catch the first ship which had already left! What was a tragedy was what happened right before the debate started. Salaethus was killed even though he worked towards getting the Peloponnesians withdrawn from Plataea. Not only were all the prisoners at hand killed almost immediately, but the 'decision to sail away and kill all the rest of the men on the island and to sell the women and children into slavery was a tragic element before the debate for sure. These are elements that make a story really tragic (even though the ship was stopped before executing all the men, etc.). Also, strong hatred arose as the Athenians assumed that the Peloponnesian fleet crossed over to Ionia and fought with the Mytilenian army, which were not even subject to the state, because it was a "premeditated", further infuriating the Athenian people. Although their original plans seemed a bit harsh, it is also surprising to me that they came to a change of heart so quickly - getting a relief ship there while the first ship's crew was still reading off the decree!
- Jefferson Gunderson
The haste and merciless punishment dished out by Athens is very tragic. Although the debate over Mytilene reopened the morning after they decided on death to all men and enslaving women and children, the fact that they would condemn more innocent people than guilty without hardly a thought is terrifying. The city of democracy, the champion of freedom should not be so quick to pass judgement. The breakdown of Athenian morality is a tragedy. Being the power of the Delian League had corrupted Athens enough to expect obedience out of all states, not just those under them.
ReplyDeleteAnother tragedy out of this section is the fact that most of the second debate is actually about the nature of speeches in Athens rather than the crime and punishment at hand. Cleon chewed the Athenians out for being soft and all the speakers for being stupid intellectuals, so to speak. The fact that the leader of Athens, Cleon, was more concerned with how the people changed their minds than the lives of Mytilene is a tragedy by itself.